Mika Ninagawa × Shigeo Goto Creating "Photography"

Dentsu Design Talk #85 (held August 21, 2012) featured photographer and film director Mika Ninagawa. We heard about the secrets of her creative process, from the making of her film "Helter Skelter" to her photography work. The interviewer was Shigeo Goto, an editor who has also produced Ninagawa's photo exhibitions and edited her photo books.

(Planning & Production: Dentsu Inc. Human Resources Bureau, Aki Kanahara     Article Editing: Sugatsuke Office     Composition Support: Eiji Kobayashi)

Mika Ninagawa (Photographer / Film Director)

Shigeo Goto (Editor / Art Producer)

How much you can sync with the story and characters

The talk began with the then-current film Helter Skelter. Mr. Ninagawa, who usually works in photography, emphasized that when he makes films, he prioritizes "how much I can sync with the story and characters, whether I can give it my all, and whether it's a project where I can convince myself there's something only I can do." In Helter Skelter, he saw the original manga by Kyoko Okazaki—which he had always loved—depicting "things that men might understand logically, but can only be understood physiologically by women." Furthermore, aware that few women work in film production and that coming from a different industry allowed her to make films while retaining a woman's perspective—which she saw as a powerful asset—she stated, "As a female director, with a female original author, and a female protagonist, I deeply explore 'what it means to be a woman' in this work."

Confronting and delving into my own anger and complexes

Regarding adapting Kyoko Okazaki's 1990s work into a film in the 2010s, When asked by Goto, "Isn't what resonates with you now different from what resonated when you read the manga as a young person?", Ninagawa responded that while she resonated with "what it means to be a woman" in her youth, another persistent concern from then until now has been "the gap in perspective between those consumed and those consuming within the overwhelmingly consumerist city of Tokyo." "In my daily work, I saw models and actresses up close—no matter how glamorous they appeared, they were struggling behind the scenes. I grew weary and angry at people who hid themselves and spoke irresponsibly about it. Thinking about myself too, I debuted during the 'girl photography' boom, in an extremely consumable situation. Working constantly under the wind pressure of being 'Ninagawa Yukio's daughter,' a kind of anger from being on the consumed side accumulated within me. Making a film is an intense process of confronting yourself. Digging deep inside, I realized just how angry I truly was. I've always had this complex: "Maybe I'm cool as a person, but am I really cool as a woman?" Helter Skelter is the culmination of that. I made this film believing that by not running away from that complex, by staring it down and digging deeper, it would ultimately become a shared language connecting me to certain people."

The starting points for expression in film and photography are different

In response, Mr. Goto remarked, "Looking only at the surface, Mr. Ninagawa's photography can seem dazzling and flashy, but at its core lies something earnest and supple. Maintaining that while creating work within a consumer society is incredibly difficult. That's why a sense of dissonance or anger builds up, and you chose 'Helter Skelter' with the feeling of 'Let's take this on now.'" When asked, "Was that something only possible through film?" to clarify the difference from photographic expression, Ninagawa responded forcefully: "When taking photographs, I feel like I've been weaving happiness into each shot. I think the starting point for the ideas is different. However, now that this film is finished, I feel it's time to seriously confront what direction I should take as a photographer going forward."

Whether to choose it or not is clear from the first word on the proposal

Regarding Ninagawa's creative approach, Goto commented, "He's a creator who wins by making fabricated lies feel more vivid or real than reality when people see them. The raw intensity within fiction, that paradox, is incredibly fascinating." He also noted that, as proven by 'Helter Skelter', films born from an artist's vision rather than marketing considerations have achieved massive success. When asked where his ability to pick successful projects and read the times comes from, Ninagawa replied, "I judge by the words in the first line of the proposal." He values whether the first line makes him think, "This looks interesting!" Regarding 'Helter Skelter', he said, "I liked the combination of 'Mika Ninagawa × Erika Sawajiri × Kyoko Okazaki'. When undertaking something big, I believe if the first impression of the line is bad, it's ultimately doomed. Also, I value whether I personally want it or would want to see it in everything. If I wouldn't want it myself, I won't produce merchandise. That kind of judgment is close to the consumer's perspective, I suppose. I also place great importance on an amateurish quality, and I think the objectivity in my decisions to build the 'Mika Ninagawa' brand is quite high," he analyzed himself.

Pursuing what I want to do with pure intent

That discernment applies to casting too, Goto noted. Indeed, for Helter Skelter, while everyone now agrees Erika Sawajiri was the only choice for the lead after seeing the film, during initial planning, people repeatedly asked her, "Are you really going with her?" "I can charge ahead based solely on what I fundamentally believe is 'good'. If you're aiming to be ahead of your time or forge a new path, relying on existing data is clearly too slow. A certain kind of adventure is necessary, but I don't think of it as an adventure—that's my characteristic. I describe myself as having 'grown straight but diagonally.' Because the initial angle is different, there's no refraction, but before you know it, the difference becomes huge (laughs). I've never thought about starting a revolution or creating new forms of expression. I just want to do what I want to do with the highest possible purity."

"I'll shoot a film in China within five years."

"People who clearly know what they should do and where they should go are strong," says Goto. So, what did Ninagawa see by making Helter Skelter? Regarding his next steps in photography, Ninagawa stated, "I want to compete with a single photograph, rather than taking pictures for photo books or exhibitions like I have done before." He also ponders whether he can create "photographs that cut into the flesh," like those in Helter Skelter, where he opens his own wounds and peers inside. While he has no concrete film plans yet, he declared, "I've decided to shoot a film in China within five years." His ambition isn't so much to photograph China as a subject, but to do the kind of work he does in Japan within the Chinese-speaking world. "I hope what I'm doing in Tokyo can simply be scaled up to encompass the Asian region," he shared his outlook.

Goto, who also frequently works overseas through art production and other projects, pointed out, "While exports in industries like automobiles and IT are progressing, the area where Japan lags most in its overseas expansion is the dissemination of culture." Ninagawa, who has already published photo books with major overseas publishers and whose films are accepted across Asia and beyond, is in a position where she embodies this potential. Mika Ninagawa holds a strong conviction: "I choose everything myself and take responsibility for it all." Staying true to her beliefs and desires, she continues to break new ground beyond Japan. Her future endeavors are highly anticipated.

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