Interview with MIT Professor Hiroshi Ishii: Intelligence, and Life and Death (Part 1)

At the MIT Media Lab, often regarded as a research institution gathering the world's top talent, extensive research is conducted under the theme of "human-technology media interaction." Professor Hiroshi Ishii, Deputy Director at the MIT Media Lab, is globally renowned for his research on "Tangible Bits" – transforming physical, touchable materials into interfaces for intangible digital information. He consistently draws attention, presenting works at events like the Salone del Mobile in Milan and sharing messages on diverse themes including international society and education. Taking advantage of Professor Ishii's visit to Japan, a group of five young Dentsu Inc. employees, earnestly seeking their own growth and the future of society, pressed him on how Japanese intellect and education should evolve.

From left: Hayato Yamagami, Promotion Production Bureau; Yoji Sakamoto, Marketing Solutions Bureau; Professor Yutaka Ishii; Junya Tanimoto, Creative Planning Division 1; Shoei Kurokawa, Marketing Solutions Bureau; Koichi Yamamoto, Full-time Bureau Chief, CDC

Thinking by "zooming out" of space and time

Yamamoto: Upon hearing Professor Ishii would be visiting Japan, four enthusiastic young employees rallied together, eager to seize this opportunity to hear his insights and engage in discussion. I will serve as moderator.

Ishii: Please go easy on me (laughs).

Yamamoto: We discussed this beforehand, and the general consensus is that we'd like to hear your broader perspectives on "education" and "personal growth." What is needed now for Japan's younger generation to achieve high competitiveness globally?

Tanimoto: Recently at work, I had an opportunity to reflect on what kind of education we should provide young people in this increasingly chaotic global society. It made me think there's much to learn from the mentality of the older generation who built Japan.

Have you heard of the manga "Gringo"? It's Osamu Tezuka's final, unfinished work. It tells the story of a big trading company executive sent to a place in South America with extremely poor security. Starting from nothing, he lays the tracks for development with his own hands and builds up the branch office. The people who built Japan's high economic growth from the ashes navigated between ideals and reality while demonstrating solid execution. Young people today tend to underestimate the mentality that drove them, but I feel there is much to learn from it.

But on the other hand, I'm concerned about the prevailing public opinion that tends to label Japan's aging society as inherently bad, based on the perception that "the elderly aren't spending their money and are stifling the economy."

Ishii: If that were true, it would be truly shocking. I understand wanting to discuss whether the mentality of the high-growth era was flawed, or how a tax system favoring high earners creates disparities in whether people can die with dignity.

But simply resenting the elderly for being a burden is an intensely egocentric viewpoint. It lacks the imagination to recognize that one day, we will be in their place.

Yamagami: Between the generation that supported postwar reconstruction and the young people who can't respect those elders, there's another generation right in the middle. They rode the wave of postwar prosperity and lived affluent lives – they're the parent generation. They enjoyed the good times, yet they curse their bad luck when it's their turn to enter the world. I feel like that's the pattern.

Ishii: It's extremely short-sighted. The fact that you were born into this world isn't just thanks to your father and mother; it's also because of the contributions of your grandparents before them.

Being older, both my father and mother were war survivors and victims. My father survived Siberia's labor camps. In Akiyuki Nosaka's Grave of the Fireflies, there's that heartbreaking scene where the little sister dies. My parents witnessed that very reality while living through the war and postwar years.

Young people born into affluent Japan may envy those who have it better than them, but their imagination is too impoverished. They've never considered, within a historical context, what kind of hardships the generation that sacrificed to build today's peace had to overcome.

Yamamoto: You're being harsh from the start (laughs).

Ishii: What matters is expanding your perspective – "zooming out" – meaning thinking about things from a broader viewpoint, spatially, temporally, and historically. We must remember that before Japan enjoyed peace, and even now, many countries and peoples face unimaginably tragic situations. One wrong step, and Japan could have ended up the same way.

What counters logic and data is emotional conviction or appeals to spirit, which can sometimes be extremely dangerous. Even when you know theoretically you'll definitely lose, you commit the mistake of starting a war you absolutely shouldn't have started, saying things like "Divine Japan will never lose" or "The divine wind will blow."

Yamagami: But no matter how many starving people exist on the other side of the world, it might be quite difficult to contrast that with our own daily lives in Japan, where we don't sense any negative vibes.

Ishii: That's also a problem of lacking imagination. Japan today has its own dark side.

Take selling one's daughter into servitude. Any parent can imagine the agony of that. Yet there are buyers, brokers. They sell because it brings money. It's not ancient history when droughts or cold summers destroyed crops, leaving no other path to survival. It still happens in many parts of the world today.

Face the dark side head-on and engage in mixed martial arts

Sakamoto: Actually , my grandfather wanted to be an artist and studied French at the Athénée Français. But he was drafted and ended up being sent to Iwo Jima. He was saved by an American soldier who happened to be fluent in French and surrendered to him, allowing him to return. After that, though, he lived his life hiding, burdened by guilt over having survived.

Now, I feel a vague anxiety that if we leave things as they are, someday I or my descendants might face the same fate. Before that happens, I believe we must properly use our intellect, make sound judgments to cut out trivial problems, and maintain a healthy, functioning society.

To achieve this, rather than narrowly clinging to the belief that Japan is special, we need to think on a larger scale as individuals – how can we contribute to the world through our own lives? I think it's crucial that a certain percentage of people in Japan hold this perspective.

Ishii: Thinking about the future is incredibly difficult. I only started seriously considering global warming after having my own children. It wasn't until both my father and mother, who survived the war and post-war era, passed away that I developed a deep sense of gratitude. I realized that it's precisely because they built this peaceful world we have today that I can be at MIT now, thinking about the future. This sense of perspective zooming out, this feeling of expansion, is incredibly important.

Yamamoto: Experiences that throw you into completely unfamiliar environments are also vital. Nowadays, fewer people study abroad, and more stay within their immediate social circles. Experiences like Sakamoto-san's grandfather's—where you're unexpectedly thrust into an environment you never imagined having to live in—are rare now.

Sakamoto: I feel that dynamism only truly emerges when you find yourself in fundamentally different circumstances or when you step away from what you took for granted and start thinking anew.

Kurokawa: It's as if the externalization of thought is advancing. For example, recommendation engines automatically select only the news we're interested in. As thinking homogenizes, it becomes harder to encounter things we never imagined or ideas that completely contradict our own.

Ishii: To zoom out your perspective, you need to engage in cross-training, in mixed martial arts. It's crucial to place yourself within cultures, societies, or people living by entirely different values and principles, and confront them. Why did Joi Ito live in Dubai? Because he understood that unless he went into the uncomfortable zone, he would fail.

A child who came to America as a boat people during the fall of Saigon worked hard on the West Coast, graduated top of his class from CalTech, and achieved remarkable success. In my group at MIT, a girl who came to America from Inner Mongolia worked harder than anyone to earn her PhD and is about to receive a professorship offer from a prestigious US university.

People who fought tooth and nail to reclaim their raison d'être when they were starving to the point of losing their dignity built the foundation of today's world. Those who've never experienced that kind of perspective or hunger will never win.

Sakamoto: I'm so eager to go abroad as soon as possible that I've been listening to BBC radio broadcasts constantly to study English. Sometimes I'm shocked by how wildly out of step the news reported by Japanese media is with global trends.

Ishii: Please don't waste your time on those people—the kind who complain endlessly within their three-meter radius, create nothing, and just devour trivial entertainment gossip. In Kenshiro's words, "You're already dead" (laughs). Instead, I urge everyone to think about how to transform themselves and influence those around them.

The idea that education will instantly elevate society from the bottom up is an illusion—that's what I believe. First, we need to cultivate many people who can achieve new things while firmly grasping deep, fundamental truths. Then, the next generation of children, seeing their backs, will be inspired to follow. That's the only way.

To achieve this, dive into different cultures, confront their darkest aspects head-on, and engage in cross-training. Examine your own worth. Solving problems anyone can solve with 80% accuracy is just sad. Unless you find something only you can do, unless you confirm your own reason for being, you cannot leap forward.

Meet people with substance early

Yamamoto: But stepping out requires tremendous energy. Why leave comfortable Japan with friends to deliberately seek hardship? That's how most people think.

Ishii: I believe it's crucial to meet people you admire, truly remarkable individuals, while you're young. The mountaineer I respect, Shota Kuriki, continues challenging himself even after losing nine fingers to frostbite. He has this wonderful saying: "If it's not fun, come down." Why? Because when you lose the mental and physical capacity to feel enjoyment, accidents happen and you die. It's incredibly intuitive.

Meeting people who embody that kind of essential quality early on. I've been incredibly fortunate to meet many remarkable people while they were still alive and hear their words directly. I'm deeply grateful for that.

Yamamoto: What kind of people were they?

Ishii: First, Douglas Engelbart, who said in the 1950s that computer communications exist to gather human knowledge and tackle social problems. Mark Weiser, the father of ubiquitous computing. And architect Bill Mitchell. He also served as Dean of Architecture at MIT. Of course, I am not related to them by blood, but I am proud to have inherited a certain kind of intellectual gene from them, so I feel that I cannot do my work carelessly.

There are many people I respect who are still alive. Nicholas Negroponte and Alan Kay, who brought me to MIT when I was in my thirties. They understood the work I was doing, but challenged me to do something completely new, to reboot.

Then there's my old buddy Bill Buxton, musician and HCI researcher. We have a fundamental principle for maintaining our friendship: even if we only meet every few years, when we do meet, we must always show each other our absolute best work. And we have to make the other person say, "Oh my God! What a great idea. Why couldn't I come up with this idea before you did?" – that "Damn it, what an amazing thing you've done! I should have done that first!"

Yamagami: That's a stimulating relationship.

Ishii: It's a serious contest (laughs). Then there's John Maeda, the MIT graphic designer. He says the purpose of education is "to create assassins." It's not about master-disciple love; education is about creating someone strong enough to eventually come for you. But I'm not going down easily. That kind of tension is crucial, whether it's between friends or mentors.

I was fortunate to meet many people with true substance when I was young. That was incredibly lucky for nurturing high aspirations and dreams.

Professor Ishii's "heroes." Top row, from left: Douglas Engelbart, Mark Weiser, Bill Mitchell. Bottom row, from left: Bill Buxton, Alan Kay, Nicholas Negroponte.

(To be continued in Part 2 )