The True Potential of Civic Tech Seen from the "Future" of Marginalized Villages: Hiromi Okuda, Representative Director of With Group

There is a term called "Civic Tech." It refers to the movement of using technologies like IT to solve local issues. For example, initiatives where citizens report information like "roads are damaged" or "there is illegal dumping" to administrative bodies via the internet are spreading worldwide. Japan is also advancing such initiatives. Hiromi Okuda, featured here, has long been active in this field. Recently, she has been focusing on unique activities centered on rural areas and the elderly—groups often left behind in the digital transformation—such as conducting tablet training sessions and promoting robot utilization for seniors in depopulated villages. She has also authored an intriguing book on "the philosophy of life." We spoke with Ms. Okuda about the theme: Can technology truly enable better communities, societies, and ultimately, better ways of living?
(Interviewer: Yuzo Ono, Planning Promotion Department Manager, Dentsu Digital Inc. Business Bureau)

What connects Mother Teresa and the IT revolution?

──I understand your university major was in welfare, unrelated to IT. How did you first encounter the internet and digital technology?

Okuda: As a student, I majored in social welfare at Mumbai University in India and researched Mother Teresa. After returning to Japan, I joined an international conference management company, where my first assignment was an international conference on communications technology. This led me to become involved in conferences in the IT field. Back in 1989, only people attending international conferences knew about the internet. But the conferences right in front of me—Macworld Expo, WINDOWS WORLD Expo—were all incredible.

At these conferences, it was engineers and executives in their 30s and 40s passionately proclaiming, "IT will change the world." Looking back, those people were actually Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. In India, I was taught that welfare is studied to change society. So, the transformative work Mother Teresa undertook to change social infrastructure as part of welfare, and the societal transformation through IT platforms, perfectly aligned within me.

──I see. So while welfare and IT weren't connected as knowledge, they were connected as ideals. How did the IT industry appear to you at that time?

Okuda: Everyone was so excited; it felt like a truly captivating world. Being constantly alongside people developing cutting-edge technology in Japan, I intuitively felt, even without fully understanding it, that "the IT world will eventually evolve into something incredible for people." I came to believe "IT makes people happy." That's why, in 1991, I resolved to launch a business to spread this technology more widely in the world.

──In recent years, "civic tech"—the idea of using IT and other technologies to build better communities and societies—has gained significant public attention. What are your thoughts on this?

Okuda: Personally, I've long been involved in IT-focused conference support, startup assistance, introducing local IT use cases, and helping revitalize communities. So when the term "civic tech" emerged, it felt incredibly strange. Honestly, I thought, "Why now?" "So who was IT for all this time?" (laughs). For me, who entered the IT world to change people's lives, IT has always fundamentally existed for citizens—never solely for academia or research.

──Recently, we've been conducting tablet training sessions for seniors in towns with many isolated villages in Shikoku and Kagoshima.

Okuda: We tend to assume "the elderly are being left behind by cutting-edge technology," but I've come to feel it's not just the elderly. Many people in their 20s to 50s probably think, "We can use computers, so we won't be left behind," but they're already starting to fall behind, at least from the perspective of younger people.

Take my high school-aged daughter, for example. She types with smartphone flick input at a speed that rivals a keyboard – astonishingly fast from my perspective. She even asks, "Why would you bother carrying around a heavy laptop and typing with both hands?" If, for example, systems using blinks or eye movements to input information are developed in the future, we'll increasingly be able to do things without using our hands. I think in ten years, we'll be laughed at: "Grandma, you're still typing with your hands?" It'll be like, "Ha ha ha! You still need to use your hands to type?" (laughs).

In other words, as IT evolves, it's not just the elderly who risk being left behind—people of all generations could be. That's why, as technology advances, we must create systems that ensure people can keep pace with these changes. We need to build a society where people help each other and work together to prevent anyone from being left behind.

IT evolution may actually create "closed societies" and community fragmentation

──Indeed, the rapid pace of IT evolution seems likely to create various generational divides.

Okuda: I feel that as IT evolves, it actually creates more and more communication gaps. For example, my parents live in Kagoshima, and my mother takes care of my father. She often calls me because she's lonely and wants to communicate. But I absolutely hate talking on the phone. I'd much rather handle it via email, or even better, use a messenger app without email. But in my mother's generation, the phone was the only option. So, what happens when phones disappear, when landlines become obsolete? How will the elderly communicate then? More fundamentally, in 20 years, when some new gadget emerges, how will I and my grandchildren stay in touch? Thinking about it, it makes me wonder if we're entering an era where every generation will be disconnected by technological evolution.

──I see. It might become a layered structure: the letter generation, the phone generation, the email generation, the messenger generation, and whatever comes next.

Okuda: I think so. Communication will surely become increasingly convenient within the same cluster. Social media, in particular, tends to create an environment saturated with empathy, where only people who "like" what you say gather. That way, narrow generations or communities end up living in a sort of "super-comfortable world," locked within their own environments, engaging in communication where they just say "like, like" to each other. If this becomes the norm, there's a real danger of becoming completely disconnected from what's being discussed in other communities. This might even happen within families or villages, where people living under the same roof or in the same village stop interacting.

I believe one of the major challenges of today's digitalization is this tendency to "close off." It feels like connections are expanding too much, yet paradoxically, they're being eroded.

In an era where knowing the real world and the curiosity to seek it out are crucial

──I certainly share the concern about a society becoming more fragmented and closed off precisely because of IT technology. How can we overcome this?

Okuda: I think we can overcome it by moving between the real world and IT, rather than living solely in the IT world. I believe that the more information there is, the more important the real world becomes. Today, anyone can easily and cheaply access vast amounts of information. Precisely because of that, meeting people, seeing and hearing things directly, and experiencing things firsthand gain value.

For example, in the late 90s, people said that since all information would eventually be available online, no one would bother going to events to listen in person anymore. But that didn't happen. Events still exist today. Why? Because once you get a little information, you want to meet that person.

Or take startups and Silicon Valley workstyles—something similar is happening there. For a while, it was said you could work anywhere, like at home or a cafe, and nomadic work using the internet was trendy. But now, the mainstream style is going to the office and working in a rich office environment. After all, new ideas and businesses only seem to emerge in places where you can sense people's presence and atmosphere to some degree.

──I really agree that the real world is important. But on the other hand, the internet keeps getting more convenient, and it seems like it's becoming possible to live entirely within that world.

Okuda: Technologies like virtual reality (VR), which are getting a lot of attention lately, are developed with that mindset, right? But can we really say it's truly enjoyable to experience an unknown world virtually, one you've never actually encountered? For example, to truly enjoy a VR desert, you need to have experienced a real sandy beach somewhere nearby, even if it's just a local one, to know that sensation. Otherwise, you might not fully appreciate the VR desert. In other words, if you don't have many of those seeds of real-world experience, you ultimately can't truly live in the virtual world of VR either. Looking back, I think the reason I've remained so excited about the IT world all this time is because I've consistently acted on my curiosity, rooted in those seeds of real experience.

As the internet advances and VR becomes more prevalent, the gap in curiosity will likely widen tremendously. People will increasingly split into those who retain interest in the real world and those who lose it. Technology will work both ways: robbing people of curiosity and adding to it. That's why the most crucial aspect of 21st-century education is nurturing curiosity. I believe children who have as many small experiences as possible are the strongest.

──When today's generation of children grows up, if they possess that curiosity, they might be able to adapt well to the major changes brought by technology.

Okuda: There's a prediction that about half of all jobs will disappear in the next decade. But I don't see that as pessimistic at all—I think it's an incredibly exciting time (laughs). After all, no generation before us has ever created so many new industries and jobs. For example, when I was a student, there was no such profession as robot developer, but it will become one now. That's why I tell children, "You are living in a fascinating era. Keep your curiosity alive so you can pursue any new profession that emerges."

Will the sensibilities unique to Japanese people contribute to future robot development?

──By the way, as robot and AI development advances and garners widespread attention, you yourself started a project this spring using robots with elderly individuals. I understand you're advancing joint product development to solve issues in depopulated areas, starting with an ideathon using SoftBank's Pepper with local residents.

Okuda: That's the initiative in Kimotsuki Town, Kagoshima. Actually, Kimotsuki Town's population structure is almost identical to Japan's projected structure for 2060, making it truly at the forefront of low birthrates and aging. That means I'm working in a town that looks exactly like the "future" Japan we anticipate. We're bringing the latest technology to that "future," working with local residents to connect homes via video phone and encourage interaction using tablet devices.

In Kimotsuki Town, we're also running initiatives where local seniors use Pepper. Compared to devices like smartphones or tablets, robots like Pepper make it easier to show how knowledge is accumulated, making them more understandable for older people. Plus, robots still in development are very approachable. When we brought Pepper to the homes of elderly residents in a depopulated village, the most exciting moment was when it stopped working. That's because, at that moment, Pepper became something that needed human care and attention. "Come on, come on!" Many elderly residents cheered Pepper on.

Right now, we're still in a phase where humans can do things for robots. That's precisely why utilizing robots in care facilities is so meaningful. As the population ages and birth rates decline, we're entering an era with fewer children and fewer people to look after them. Having robots that people want to care for in such times can foster human connections and communication.

I believe the desire to contribute to something is the very essence of humanity. Many developers tend to strive for perfect robots, so when it comes to care robots, they're often focused on assisting with walking or changing diapers – robots that "take care of" people. I think the opposite is true; there absolutely should be a category of robots that people can "take care of."

Actually, the image of robots differs by country and culture. In Japan, robots that communicate and coexist with people like this are well-received. Perhaps because the worlds of Astro Boy and Doraemon are deeply rooted here. In contrast, in the US, robots often carry an image akin to weapons for combat. Looking at actual development sites, you see robots being built with a somewhat combative nature – ones that shove things out of the way to stand up, or kick up robots running towards them. In Europe, the underlying perspective is often an extension of immigration, with a desire to create robots as a replacement for human labor. That's why you get the attitude of "Do robots even need faces in the first place?"

──Indeed, many U.S. civilian robot manufacturers originally focused primarily on military development, didn't they?

Okuda: Recently, campaigns like "Stop Killer Robots" have gained traction, urging us to halt the development of robots and AI for weapons or killing purposes now. Such killing robots are simply unacceptable within the Japanese perception of robots. Therefore, I believe something cultivated by the Japanese could play a positive role when considering the future.

As IT advances, it becomes easier to see people "maintaining beautiful posture."

──There's a persistent argument these days that technologies like robots and artificial intelligence pose a threat to humanity. Does IT truly make people happy?

Okuda: If asked whether robots or AI will destroy humanity , the answer is yes if the number of people seeking to destroy us exceeds those trying to stop it. Ultimately, that decision rests with humans. That's why I believe I'm running around the real world working hard right now—to increase the number of people who believe IT can bring happiness to humanity.

Actually, while working in a declining village, I was struck by something. People expressed the view: "I'd be happy if the person I cherish most found me first after I died." Of course, being noticed the instant you collapse would be the happiest outcome. But even beyond that, they want to be found early. It goes beyond just "not wanting to die alone" or "wanting someone to be with me at the end." Precisely because this is a "future marginal village," the ultimate happiness lies in feeling the presence of someone you truly love nearby. Discussions are happening about how to leverage IT technology for that happiness. I felt this perspective touches on the very foundation of technology and human existence.

──Does IT change how people live? For example, in your book, you write that social media has altered the nature of "chance" in life.

Okuda: The internet has made it easier for people to connect and pass opportunities along. For instance, you can pass an opportunity with just one Facebook message saying, "I've recommended you to Company X." Back in the days before the internet, even recommending a company required meeting in person, doing research, preparing documents—it was incredibly time-consuming. But now, you can see a company's track record, a person's profile, and their activities just by looking at their website. You can introduce them by posting a link on Facebook with just three lines of text.

In other words, the internet makes people more visible. For those who are genuinely living their lives, it's become an era where they're incredibly easy to introduce. And people who are trustworthy, possess certain abilities, or are sincere in their efforts even if they're a bit clumsy – those are the people who get introduced easily. That's why, for the way we'll live as the internet advances, the most important thing is to "maintain a beautiful posture."

──Speaking of online opportunities, things like crowdfunding are booming. Do you feel the internet has made it easier to take on challenges?

Okuda: I do. The internet has made society information-saturated, which has its downsides, but one upside is that there's so much information, things get forgotten. In other words, it's an era where it's okay to fail. If you use that wisely, and keep trying after failing, only what you've consistently built up remains as information.

This means consistent, genuine activity will be valued, creating a society that sees only the essence of what you do. For better or worse, it's an era where you can't fake things. In that sense, I really love this era. "Maintaining a beautiful posture" means exactly that – it's not about doing things to impress others, but about an era where steady, consistent effort gets recognized, brought about by the advancement of the internet.