Roh Karma × Naoki Tanaka: That "Exactly!" You Couldn't Put Into Words Creates Empathy

Tanaka: Rappers do seem well-suited for sales.

Lu Bu: The key to sales is, first and foremost, saying things that make the other person happy. On the flip side, for words that might make them back out of a deal, I'd prepare materials and counterarguments beforehand.

Tanaka: What kind of things make people happy enough to buy the product? I don't consciously think about it, but the thought process might be the same for salespeople and copywriters. I think it comes down to how well you can imagine the other person's perspective. When I was in sales, I only thought about the client, but since moving to the production side, I tend to think more about the people in the world who see the ads.

Lu Bu: Freestyle rap is also a dialogue with your opponent, but it's closer to debate. However, unlike a sales meeting, it's not done behind closed doors, so it's not just about winning; you have to get the audience hyped up.

Lu Bu Karma's Battle Style Where "What to Say" Stands Out

Tanaka: It's strong, isn't it? Lu Bu's battles.

Lu Bu: Yeah, I think I'm pretty strong.

Tanaka: The best part is how he slashes through his opponent's "superficial, seemingly good words" right at the root. I believe great copywriting is first and foremost about "What to say" – what you say is absolutely crucial. Lu Bu's rap has an abnormally strong "What to say."

Lu Bu: In battles, I'm watching my opponent's words and the crowd's reaction while barely managing to get my words onto the beat. My head's all adrenaline-fueled, so I don't remember much. Even when I think I've won, I can lose. I think battles are unpredictable.

Tanaka: So you're instantly gathering words from within yourself. Just imagining that makes me feel queasy.

Lu Bu: I felt sick at the start too (laughs).

Tanaka: You went through that phase!?

Lu Bu: Oh yeah. Like after my turn ended, my hand would shake uncontrollably when putting the mic back on the stand.

Tanaka: That's surprising (laughs). Since we're on the topic, I'll ask—you sometimes rhyme and sometimes don't, right?

Copywriter Naoki Tanaka

Lu Bu: Since freestyle rap is all about smooth delivery, rhymes sometimes just fly out reflexively. If I have the time, I might pick up on what the other person said and rhyme deliberately. Basically, if it's a meaningless rhyme, I tend not to force it.

Tanaka: In copywriting, after "What to say," "How to say" is crucial—meaning how you phrase things matters. When releasing copy to the world, we sometimes tweak expressions or use rhetorical devices like puns or wordplay that almost feel like rhymes to create impact. Is there a reason you don't prioritize rhymes?

Lu Bu: Most rappers who battle form a circle and do a cypher. It's like soccer juggling—practicing tossing words back and forth without letting them fall off the beat. Among us, patterns and shared understanding develop, even giving rise to techniques like "rhyme reading" (*). Battling within predictable limits isn't fun, so I approach it with the mindset of only shooting, not juggling.
※Rhyme reading: Anticipating the rhyme your opponent might use and preemptively blocking it.

Tanaka: I think one reason Ryūbu-san's unique phrasing, unconstrained by rhyme, garners support is its distinctiveness. What influences you?

Ryūbu: People say rappers and writers should read lots of books, but I disagree. Reading just to reflect it in your work feels like plagiarism. It's like eating not to enjoy the food, but just to produce good poop. I don't get it.

Tanaka: (bursts out laughing) I see. What about music?

Rōbu: Other rappers might listen to American rap and read translations, but I don't listen to Western music. I used to like Japanese rock, but I started listening to Japanese hip-hop after being influenced by a song from the hip-hop crew Mōsōzoku.

Tanaka: Back then, I was also into hip-hop scratch battles and collected quite a few records. I remember getting into Japanese rap after randomly buying Gaki Ranger's "Sid & Nancy." It was underground content I definitely can't mention here, but I was shocked by the way they used language.

Ryūbu: "Sid & Nancy" is vulgar yet intelligent—it's an incredibly cool song. I've always thought music faces uniquely strict expression regulations. Movies and novels overflow with depictions of murder and sex, yet music isn't allowed the same freedom. Maybe it's because lyrics hit your ears so directly. Indie hip-hop lyrics aren't censored like major label music. It's an extension of everyday conversation, so it's a real, free world. And since it's just words, it doesn't cost anything upfront – I thought rap seemed like something you could do without even practicing.

That satisfying "Yeah, exactly!" becomes the punchline

 

Lu Bu: Compared to rap's word count, copywriting only has punchlines, right? Rap lyrics should pack a punch from start to finish. Having one punchline line diluted over a four-minute song just doesn't cut it.

Rapper Ryūbu Karuma

Tanaka: In advertising copy, there's also a distinction between the catchphrase and the body copy. Body copy isn't read by many people. That's why I was taught to write body copy as if every single line were a catchphrase, and I still practice that today. Rap and copywriting really do share similarities. Every single word has to be strong. Lu Bu, is there any copy that's stood out to you over the years?

Ryūbu: YouTube's "Live by doing what you love." struck me as powerful. When I worked at a cram school, a third-grader saw a YouTube ad and declared, "I'm gonna be a YouTuber when I grow up!"

Tanaka: The very next year after that ad, YouTuber ranked 4th in the elementary school students' future career aspirations. Back then, the act of one person streaming videos to a PC camera wasn't widely understood. That ad added a positive intent to that new behavior. It's not just words to sell a product; it's a phrase that catches someone's eye and makes them pause.

Lu Bu: Plus, it has the potential to become the driving force behind someone taking action. So, maybe it's my role to pour cold water on it and say, "You don't know if this culture will even exist by the time you grow up, you okay with that?" (laughs).

Tanaka: True (laughs). That's so typical of you, Lu Bu. Copywriting has three stages: "obvious," "definitely," and "I don't get it." "Obvious" gets ignored. What the audience really wants is that "definitely" resonance. If you go past that, it becomes "I don't get it."

Ryūbu: It's that feeling of "I couldn't quite put it into words, but now that you mention it!" You know what I mean. But music is something that even "I don't get it" stuff sinks in after hearing it repeatedly, so I mix those three stages when writing lyrics.

The moment you pander to a certain group's perspective, the charm disappears.

Tanaka: Do SNS reactions influence your lyrics or performances? There's no end to the fake Lu Bu accounts on Twitter, and your video views are insane, right?

Lu Bu: I completely ignore it. I think the reason people admire or get hooked on artists is because their sensibilities are completely different from their own. So the moment you pander to a specific group's perspective, the appeal disappears. Even if people don't understand me, if they praise me, I'll go the opposite direction. That might be the crucial difference between indie music and advertising.

Tanaka: While I think it's healthy to get both positive and negative reactions, pushing people away is a high-risk approach for us.

Lu Bu: Commercial language needs to be pulled back a bit so it's understandable to a certain extent for everyone, right?

Tanaka: Most of the time, the goal is to solve the client's problem or gain the "favor" of the general public. However, in today's environment, where interesting things are overflowing thanks to the spread of the internet, just waiting for people to come to TV or newspapers has become inefficient. That's why my approach to the fight has shifted from just copy and commercials to a more neutral way of thinking about the means. For example, I think coming up with the Matsukoroid project, like creating a robot of Matsuko Deluxe, is a new methodology.

Lu Bu: What exactly is Matsukoroid advertising?

Tanaka: It started when a professor at Osaka University tweeted, "We have the technology to build sophisticated android robots, but we want more people to know about it." That's what sparked it. I took it upon myself to act. The approach I chose was to turn the most recognizable person into entertainment in the most visible place.

Lu Bu: So moving people isn't just about words, huh?

Tanaka: We do monitor social media, and for some projects, we gather feedback based on reactions. A recent example would be the work for Coconut Sable cookies. Have you heard of them?

Lu Bu: A classic product. I know it.

Tanaka: For over 50 years, the packaging and contents remained unchanged... it had become quite an unassuming presence in the confectionery world. We turned that image on its head by creating a product timeline with a junior copywriter. It said, "In 19??, what happened in the world? For Coconut Sablés, nothing much happened" (laughs). Often, the buzzing topics online are more interesting than ads, especially when people create them organically. We made this ad with the feeling of playing on the same level as the people online.

Copywriter Naoki Tanaka

Lu Bu: How do you arrive at these ideas?

Tanaka: I do research on the product when given a brief, but I mostly imagine what people are feeling. I start by finding the core issue hidden within that. Whether it's copy or planning, I believe finding that is the shortcut to a good concept. But it's really tough. I've been doing this for nine years now, and it's still exhausting. How about when you write lyrics for songs, Ryūbu? Do you decide on the theme or title first?

Lu Bu: I start writing without any theme or title in mind, and I add the title last. If I set a theme, my ideas get confined to that topic. Not setting one lets my imagination expand freely. But for the AbemaTV show "NEWS RAP JAPAN," I write lyrics based on given current events topics. I research, break it down, and fit it into 16 bars. That process might be closer to copywriting.

Tanaka: With your skills and the power of your words, you could definitely write copy too.

Ryūbu: I'm interested in forms of expression beyond rap. Back in art school, I aimed to be a manga artist, so I still have that desire to draw again.

Tanaka: I'd love to see your work. It would be amazing if we could collaborate on a project together.

 

Produced by: Shunsuke Kaga
Title Calligraphy: Kengo Aoki
Rapper Selection: Taika