Tamesue Talks: Random Thoughts on His Recent Book "The Theory of Mastery" vol.5

"Free Flow" is a serialized interview column in Web Dentsu Inc. News where Mr. Dai Tamesue freely discusses "things on his mind right now." This special edition focuses on his book "Theory of Mastery" (published by Shinchosha), released on July 13th. For Part 1, we asked Mr. Hibi from Dentsu Inc. Future Creative Center, who has long collaborated with Mr. Tamesue on the Athlete Brains project, to contribute a prologue for the series.

Starting with #02, we feature a dialogue between the author, Mr. Tamesue, and Mr. Fumio Iwasa, the producer/editor who handled the editing of "Theory of Mastery." They share "stories you can only hear here," focusing on the background leading to the writing, memories, and the hardships involved. This series, based on the profound theme of "How should humans live?", concludes with this article (#06). We hope you enjoy it.

(Web Dentsu Inc. Editorial Department)

The final character was one I envisioned from the very beginning, alongside "遊" (play). (Hiroshi Tamura)

Iwasa: So, the final character of the "Theory of Mastery," which has progressed through "遊" (play), "型" (form), "観" (observation), and "心" (heart), is finally revealed.

Tamesue: A single kanji character representing the process (stages) of human "mastery." To jump straight to the conclusion, it is "空" (kuu). Literally, the "empty" "void." A state where both mind and heart are empty. A state where one even forgets their own existence, so to speak.

Iwasa: It's also described as "being in the zone," isn't it?
 

Tametsu: For athletes, it's when the body moves automatically, and consciousness follows behind. In hurdling, for example, you lose track of whether you're approaching the hurdle or the hurdle is approaching you.

Iwasa: So it's the body moving on its own, not the mind?

Tametsu: I don't think you can consciously decide, "From this moment, I'm entering the void." You just prepare, and whether you enter it or not is up to luck. In my experience, it's happened three times in my life. Under intense pressure at events like world championships, when I felt like I was about to break, I'd let go completely at the last moment and plunge into this "void."

Iwasa: It sounds almost like a dream.

Tametsu: Sensationally, it is a dream itself. It doesn't even qualify as the "theory" part of the "Theory of Mastery," but it feels like warping directly from the "play" stage into the "void." That feeling of "What on earth was that?" might be what drove me to write "The Theory of Mastery."

Iwasa: For someone like me, an ordinary person, it's probably something I'll never experience in a lifetime.

Tamese: I don't think that's true.

Iwasa: Well, that would be nice. But I don't think I've ever had an experience like that in my life.

Mr. Fumio Iwasa: Producer/Editor. Graduated from Jiyu Gakuen. Worked as a business book editor at the Japan Productivity Center and Diamond Inc., served as editor-in-chief of "Harvard Business Review," and became independent in 2017. Producer of the books "Shin Nihon" and "The Imagining Mind & The Thinking Hand," as well as Tamesue Dai's "The Theory of Mastery." Currently serves as editor-in-chief of the audio media platform 'VOOX' and is a Fellow at Eiji Press.

Tamesue: When you're deeply immersed in something—whether it's golf, fishing, making soba noodles, or anything else—I think that state of being engrossed is close to a state of "emptiness."

Iwasa: I sort of get what you mean. If that "void" is the ultimate destination, I understand Tamesue-san's desire not to turn "The Theory of Mastery" into a "Theory of Success."

Tamura: Why do we learn? Partly to be needed by society or to demonstrate greater ability and receive compensation, right? I, too, originally studied because I wanted to be the best in the world. But once you experience this "emptiness," you feel an intense, visceral reality in the act itself. You feel joy not in the result, but in the process itself. It's like truly feeling alive.

Iwasa: So this process of mastery isn't tied to the process of success in capitalism?

Tamura: Capitalism itself can be seen as one large system. Striving to climb higher within that system is effort, and fitting into its higher tiers is considered good skill. But that very thing also limits you, right? How do you unleash your true power, liberated from that system?

Iwasa: So mastery isn't about adapting to the system, but about liberating oneself into a realm beyond the system's constraints?

Tamesue: I feel that desire to "put that thought into words" is at the root of why I wanted to write this "Theory of Mastery" this time.

The chapter on "Emptiness" brought tears to my eyes. (Iwasa Fumio)

Iwasa: I can't go into detail without spoiling it, but for some reason, in the "Emptiness" chapter, I just couldn't stop crying. I can't logically explain why the tears flowed, but it felt like I was overwhelmed by indescribable emotions – the fragility of life, the noble determination to live wholeheartedly despite it, wabi, sabi... I might be unfit as an editor, but that's how it felt.

Tamesue: I believe it was in a book written by a Spaniard, but there's a concept called "ikigai." For some, their ikigai is tending nameless flowers on their balcony; for others, it's achieving success in their career. This ikigai isn't about work going well or growing splendid flowers that earn praise. It's a world where you gain fulfillment simply by doing it yourself, and find joy in understanding it for yourself.

Iwasa: For you, Tamesue-san, was your "ikigai" during your active career your times?

Tamesue: My interest was in how far I could go. Time was part of it, but I wanted to liberate myself. No matter how much I pushed past the limits of physical strength or effort, if I still had this unconscious belief that "I have to run like this," I couldn't fully liberate myself. I'd been thinking about this for a long time, but after experiencing that state of complete absorption, that "void," I realized: Ah, it's not about thinking at all. It's about becoming absorbed that brings liberation. If that's the case, then ultimately, isn't being in a state of absorbed play the best? And so, the play begins again.

Iwasa: So "emptiness" isn't the final destination? Is there something beyond it? Somehow, I'm starting to feel suffocated.

Tametsu: I think what lies beyond is an as-yet-unseen "play" (laughs).

Iwasa: I'm truly baffled. What kind of "play" could that be? I know I'm the one who wrote it, but I'll reread "The Theory of Mastery" with that in mind.

Tametsu: You might just discover a ridiculous typo. Like a character you absolutely believed was "Tametsu" was actually printed as "Fake End." (laughs)

Iwasa: That kind of joke is a no-go in the publishing world. (laughs)

"Emptiness" leads to a new "play"

Back issues of 'Athlete Brains: Tamesue Dai's 'Fluid Pacing'", serialized in Web Dentsu Inc., are available here.