Asking the Famous Directors of "Wednesday's How About It!": Creating a Comfortable Team

With the vision "Designing the Future from the Youth," the planning and creative unit Dentsu Inc. Youth Research Department "Wakamon" (hereafter Wakamon) explores emerging new values and researches the management mindset necessary for future leaders.

From this work emerged the concept of "Flat Management." Its core idea is that instead of leaders imposing opinions top-down, they should respect subordinates and team members, engaging on an equal, horizontal level to create a "comfortable team."

This series features dialogues between WAKAMON members and prominent figures practicing such "Flat Management." The third installment features the director duo of Tadashi Fujimura and Masamichi Ureshino, creators of the hugely popular Hokkaido Television (HTB) program "Wednesday, What About?" WAKAMON members Kanako Setsuda and Sayuri Mochida, who are fans of the show, draw out essential team theories from these admired figures.

Continuing to blaze unprecedented trails in a team without fixed roles

──This time, we'd like to hear about your management philosophy, which has shattered fixed values and common sense. First, "Wednesday's How About It?" is now legendary content, but launching such an unconventional program at a local station must have faced headwinds, right?

Fujimura: More than headwinds, the station folks were just kind of dumbfounded. Seriously, local stations almost never make variety shows seriously. No budget, no talent. And here we were, genuinely intent on beating Tokyo's major networks (laughs).

So when we asked ourselves how to compete, we decided to avoid looking like a "local program." The moment it's seen as a "local program," the assumption sets in that "it must be boring" or "it's probably B-grade."

We'd leave Sapporo and somehow end up traversing Australia six months later. We'd borrow three months' worth of production costs upfront, thinking, "We'll just make it up with that."

Meanwhile, back at the station, the reaction was like, "Hey, those guys are overseas somewhere," or "Heard they're heading to Europe next. Is that even okay?" It was like, "What the heck are these people trying to do?" (laughs).

Ureshino: And we weren't going overseas just to do tourist-style reporting.

Fujimura: But once the ratings started picking up, people started noticing, like, "Hey, those guys are the only ones having fun at work!" Especially in Japan, people who seem to be enjoying their work don't get much credit, right?

Ureshino: And then, after a while, people within the company who wanted to control "Dou Deshou" started appearing.

Fujimura: But they'd left us alone for nearly a year. We were editing everything ourselves, just Ureshino and me, and we set all our own schedules. So by the time they wanted to control us, it was already too late (laughs).

──As directors, I imagine you also have a role in leading and managing the team. Could you tell us how you manage the team and what you keep in mind?

Fujimura: "Dō Deshou" is entirely just me and Ureshino-san. Well, there are the talents, Mr. Oizumi (Hiroshi) and Mr. Suzui (Takayuki), and their agencies behind them, but from a team perspective, it's just a gathering of individuals. Each person is independent and asserting their own ideas.

Ureshino: He often compares it to a soccer formation. It's just the two of us, but the four of us—including the talent—think and act independently.

Fujimura: In soccer, you have to fluidly change positions. On "Dōdeshō," even the positions of talent and director are ambiguous. I might be up front doing most of the talking, while Suzui-san is constantly off-screen. Even Ureshino-san isn't just rolling the camera; he'll knock it over, asserting his control over this world (laughs).

Ureshino: First off, there are no instructions. No instructions, yet the situation changes constantly. In response, without any prior planning, formations just happen on the spot, and we move forward.

Fujimura: The roles switch intensely too. There's no "you're the straight man" or anything like that, so the variations are endless. That format is the ultimate team I aim for.

──That's truly the ideal team. Outside of "Dō Deshou," how do you build your teams?

Fujimura: After one regular episode of "Dōdeshō?" aired, we started making a drama. Mr. Ureshino was the producer, I was the director, and including staff we brought in from outside, it grew to a scale of about 60 people. So the very first thing we did was shoot everything without the actors, just gathering the staff who could come.

It was our first time shooting a drama, so we knew nothing, right? Like, when the two main characters are sitting here, which angle should we shoot from? If we pull back, how far back is the right distance? So, to eliminate that worry first, we used the staff as stand-ins and shot everything with the cameraman.

Ureshino: Local productions have time on their side, you know (laughs).

──So before the actual shoot, you actually experienced the entire production process firsthand.

Fujimura: Exactly. Since local stations rarely make dramas, I figured the outside staff might look down on us a bit (laughs). So if we shot it ourselves first to avoid hesitation, we wouldn't be nervous anymore. During the actual shoot, we could say things like, "Okay, sit over here," or "Ah, that's good, OK," with a lot more ease.

Plus, making dramas should be really fun, but apparently a lot of people have stern faces... I figured a set like that would be full of irritable, tense people. That just seems uncool.

Ureshino: When someone's irritable, everyone else starts tiptoeing around them, right? It doesn't actually move the work forward, and in the end, it just ends up hindering everyone.

Fujimura: So it came down to how much fun we could make "filming a drama" look. By enjoying ourselves, we steered the whole team—including the actors—in that direction.

──So you transformed that typically tense filming environment into a positive, relaxed atmosphere.

Fujimura: We'd already shot it once beforehand, so we had that mental cushion. Well, we were still beginners. At first, just seeing Yuko Tanaka move right in front of me at my "Ready, action!" call was so moving! I genuinely felt moved, whether it was by the actors or the staff. Even with just one light, I'd think, "Wow, you're aiming it from that high up!" That's how we built an atmosphere where everyone could enjoy making the drama.

How do you build a team that feels comfortable for everyone?

──I think you two unconsciously fostered psychological safety within the team, including respect for each crew member's individual work.

Fujimura: Safety, at its core, means seeing the path ahead, right? Feeling unsafe or flustered comes from not seeing it. An army that shouts "That way!" without seeing the path is doomed. You just need to follow someone who can see it. To do that, being honest with yourself is the most important thing.

Ureshino: When he couldn't see the way, he'd honestly say he couldn't see it. He completely handed over all the music to Mr. Honma (Akimitsu).

Fujimura: That's awesome! (laughs). You know how there are conventions and formats? As a director, during music meetings, I have to draw lines on the script and specify what music goes with each scene—otherwise it's a problem. Everyone adapts themselves to that format, but pretending to see what you don't see is just impossible.

Of course, when it's something I'm good at, I confidently say, "I'll handle it!" But for things I feel are interchangeable, I just say, "Please handle it well," and hand it off completely. People who can't do that—well, I can't help but think they just don't want others to think, "That director doesn't even know that?"

──Being honest with yourself and delegating what you can't do to those who can. On top of that, keeping a sense of enjoyment is key, right?

Fujimura: Exactly. But "fun" doesn't mean just aiming for a noisy, chaotic good time. It's about everyone naturally stepping forward because they genuinely feel "this is fun." That's what I'm constantly aiming for. It's this level of enthusiasm (leaning forward like this) that creates that vibe throughout the entire team.

Even without us saying anything, they start running because the work is enjoyable. The lighting crew comes in with spotlights shining brightly, leaning forward and saying, "We can do this too!" We just have to receive their proposals and make decisions, so it's incredibly easy (laughs). But if someone keeps coming to ask, "There are no instructions, so what should I do?", that might be difficult.

Ureshino: Starting with "Wednesday's How About It?", not a single person ever asked that person for instructions. He's not the type who wants to give instructions either. He's the kind of person who says, "If there's something good, I want it all."

Fujimura: If you let go of each person's unique strengths, I don't think there's a path forward. Ureshino and I always wonder why people don't just say "I can't do this." Honestly, if they'd just say "I can't do this, but I can do that," it would be fine. Instead, everyone just says "It's fine!"

Ureshino: If they don't clearly say what they can't do, then the right people don't end up in the right places when it comes to putting the right people in the right roles.

Fujimura: When you're working and think, "Hmm, I can't quite do this," I wish people would just stop trying so hard. I think that's what causes frustration on set. Humans can push through things they can do, even if it's tough, but they just can't do what they can't do.

──I think the ideal team is like the four members of "Dōdeshou"—one that doesn't fixate on roles, adapts to each situation, and operates autonomously without needing constant direction.

Fujimura: Until now, we never needed "self-driving organizations." In Japanese society up until now, there was no need for us to come up with ideas and enjoy taking on challenges. The only logic that ever mattered was how to keep the organization stable and functioning. They talk about reporting, informing, and consulting, but in a self-driving organization, it's "don't consult, don't inform, don't report" (laughs). "Hey, I went ahead and did it." If you have time to say "I'm going here," just go already.

Ureshino: Consultation can come later (laughs).

Fujimura: If maintaining organizational stability is the priority, reporting, communicating, and consulting are necessary. But I think it's impossible to push forward with "Let's move ahead" or "Let's keep trying new things" in those old-fashioned organizations. I believe what's crucial is how much you allow people to act on their own initiative and how you create an atmosphere where they feel free to take the initiative.

──Hearing you now, I feel like many organizations suffer from rigid thinking. Maybe we need to start by accepting that we don't share the same mindset as younger people.

Fujimura: Ah, speaking of which, I think the "Youth Research Department" is kind of weird too.

──That part(laughs).

Fujimura: When building organizations going forward, it's not about "young people versus old people" or "men versus women." Saying things like "You're young, so..." or "You're a woman, so..." is an outdated way of thinking about organizational structure. At that point, you're already preventing the creation of a dynamic, forward-thinking organization. It doesn't matter about age or gender; you need people who share the same mindset and aspirations to come together.

From now on, it's an era where "people with the same aspirations" will form teams.

──Tell us the skills and mindset needed to build teams in today's era.

Fujimura: Until now, "large organizations" were necessary. But the population is shrinking, and nobody believes mass production and mass consumption bring happiness anymore. So large organizations become unnecessary. If you can live on your own, that's fine. So why form teams?

I don't think it's just for profit. It's about realizing that what you want to do becomes even more achievable with someone else. It's about sharing and empathizing with that. Actually, you can get quite a lot done alone, but it's still lonely without two or three people (laughs). That sense of empathy and shared purpose when doing something becomes the driving force forward. Ureshino-san is a perfect example; having her there creates incredible sharing and empathy.

Ureshino: So there are benefits to human life that go beyond purely cash-based profits. Empathy and shared purpose will become the value that makes people want to team up for work going forward. That's probably where the future lies.

──You can't even form a circle by yourself. So, you need a team of like-minded people. What qualities do you look for in team members?

Fujimura: Recently, we toured 11 locations nationwide for the "Wednesday How About It? Caravan." HTB only has 20 staff members. That's not enough to set up tents and run events everywhere, so we recruited 30 volunteers.

Some staff members were young or participating in the Caravan for the first time. I told them that at their respective posts—like reception or sales—they should become leaders and guide the volunteers effectively.

We had a similar team structure during a previous caravan, but some staff back then took a condescending tone, telling volunteers things like "You can't do that!" in a scolding manner. From my own experience, I know that approach won't work well with volunteers.

Before this caravan, I told the younger folks, "Above all, just have fun doing it." The caravan involves traveling around for nearly a month doing events. It's tough. "If you think of it purely as work, you probably won't be able to handle it, so you're better off not coming." The key is whether you can enjoy it. This year, we even started the caravan by forming a circle together (laughs).

Ureshino: "Let's go!" Surprisingly, that really worked. It felt flat, right?

Fujimura: Exactly, it flattens the organization. Even without us giving instructions, they all threw themselves into it. It was an incredibly good team.

Ureshino: The volunteers on the caravan are customers. Because they're customers, they understand the feelings of the customers coming best. So there's no need to give orders from above to them.

Fujimura: It's like learning from the volunteers themselves—sometimes they understand things better than we do.

──So enjoying things on the same level as team members is key. When building a team, how do you find like-minded people you can connect with?

Ureshino: It's probably just chance. We ended up together because of our boss's decision back then. I think this guy (Mr. Fujimura) didn't want to work with me specifically either (laughs). He didn't seem like he'd work hard, and he's six years older. But I thought we could get along because the programs he made were interesting. I thought, "There's someone out there making stuff this good?" We shared that sensibility, so it worked out. Plus, he's so straightforward—he just says things bluntly (laughs)—so communication was never an issue.

──So the foundation of mutual respect was already there, which is huge, right? Fujimura-san, your communication style is all about laying yourself bare first, isn't it?

Fujimura: That's true.

Ureshino: Even when talking to someone he's meeting for the first time, he just dives right in. To the other person, it must feel a bit unreasonable, right? But then the other person fires back, and that's when the barriers to communication break down. His comments in meetings aren't exactly conventional either. He's never followed what you'd call a "proper meeting format" (laughs).

Fujimura: Sometimes when I attend meetings, everyone's just sitting there stiffly, right? Then I'll say something like, "Basically, when problems arise, we have to smooth things over! Let's really think about how to do that!"

Ureshino: It kind of makes everyone relax, right? Like, "Oh, so that's how it is."

──That might be really important too. It makes it easier for everyone to speak up. I think the key is to face people not from above, but from a level, sideways perspective.

Ureshino: This person looks like they might be condescending, right? But fundamentally, they never get angry. I think they just dislike being in an angry state.

Fujimura: Exactly. Angry people look bad. But in bad organizations, the ones at the top are the "top-down" types, right? If they say go right, everyone goes right. They don't actually see the path, but for old-school organizations, "everyone going right" is what matters. If someone says, "Shouldn't we go left instead?" they get yelled at, "How dare you! Everyone's going right!" (laughs).

Ureshino: So you just follow whoever can see the path at that moment, right?

—It doesn't necessarily mean the person at the top has to see everything. It's about following whoever can see the way, regardless of hierarchy. Thank you so much for your valuable insights today!

Moving forward, this series will continue to explore "Flat Management" by interviewing leaders across various industries. Stay tuned!