IDPW × Yasuhiro Tsuchiya: Part 2 "It's fascinating how things with completely different values and religious perspectives can all coexist side-by-side."

Continuing from last time, we present an interview conducted by Yasuhiro Tsuchiya via Google Hangouts with members of IDPW ( http://idpw.org/ ). Starting with their story of organizing the "Internet Yami Market," a flea market themed around the internet in Berlin, then moving on to the Sakawa Boys, and...

Berlin has a strong sense of freedom, and it was interesting to see that

Tsuchiya: In February 2014, you held an Internet Black Market event in Berlin. How was it doing it overseas?

Chihiro: First, the video "Back streets of the Internet" ( http://youtu.be/mjWJsE7B1cs ) created by IDPW member Tax Gull (aka Merce Death) really helped convey the atmosphere and concept of the Internet Black Market overseas. Initially, I thought it might be impossible to get the feel of the Internet Black Market across to German people, but once we got started, the atmosphere was just like the Tokyo Internet Black Market.

Scenes from the Internet Black Market held in Berlin

 

Akaishi: But looking closely, the items offered were still a bit different. The Internet Dark Market in Berlin wasn't open to the public; we reached out to interesting communities. Maybe that created a bias, but it had a relatively strong political slant.

Watanabe: That's right.

Akaishi: People from the Pirate Party, an internet-based political party, also participated. They brought a vibe reminiscent of a geek house at a Japanese black market—a kind of eclectic, laid-back feel. Many of the items they offered for sale centered on themes of criticism or commentary against restrictions and constraints.

Hagiwara: That must be Berlin's unique character.

Akaishi: Exactly. That strong awareness of freedom was really interesting to see. You don't get that level of political overtones in Japan.

Tsuchiya: True, I haven't seen items with political messages at Japanese internet flea markets.

Chifusa: Japanese underground markets have a lot of shrine-related stuff, like omikuji fortune slips, right?

Akaishi: Exactly. At least two or three people always show up with Shinto-related items.

Watanabe: That's right. The Japanese people living in Berlin who participated in Berlin's underground market, known as Berlin UFO, were also selling fortune slips.

Chihiro: And "Packet Guru."

Watanabe: Oh yeah, there was this artist living in Berlin named Honda. He was selling software that cleanses packets flowing through the network, making it possible to send clean data.

Chihiro: He was meditating the entire time during the event (laughs).

Packet Guru

 

Hagiwara: I was handling consignment sales for people who couldn't come to Berlin, focusing on selling their products. I noticed that while Germans showed interest, they were pretty tight-fisted when it came to spending.

Akaishi: Exactly. I interviewed the vendors, and sales weren't that great. But they said they enjoyed the communication, so whether things sold or not didn't matter. For example, in the relationship between art and the viewer, directly approaching the artist can be quite a hurdle. But in a format like a black market, it's interesting how communication between creator and audience happens naturally.

 

For example, I'd love to see what kind of internet an old man would imagine.

Tsuchiya: What do you see for the future of the Internet Black Market?

Chihiro: Actually, we've had quite a few inquiries. Since the format is scalable, we're thinking of expanding it.

Akaishi: I think the balance between online and offline relationships is what makes it feel contemporary and interesting. Rather than just continuing it indefinitely, I think it would be more exciting to spread it out all over the world right now. Plus, if we create a format that anyone can do, I think it would spread even more easily.

Watanabe: Yeah. Doing it in various places might reveal that "internet-like" quality—the similarities and differences in how it manifests. I think it'd be great to discover aspects of the internet you wouldn't see in Tokyo, in different locations. Personally, I think it'd be interesting to try it in countries where the internet isn't very widespread.

Tsuchiya: An underground internet market in a country without internet would be hilarious (laughs).

Akaishi: The internet of imagination (laughs).

Hagiwara: There's also the generational angle, right? Like, I'd love to see what kind of internet a grandpa would imagine.

Akaishi: Since we usually operate in art spaces, we often hold Internet Black Markets within art festivals. But the internet isn't limited to art, so I think it would be interesting to involve all kinds of people.

Chihiro: Yeah, that's right. We want as many different types of people as possible to participate.

Tsuchiya: So you won't be doing anything like the IDPW space you had in Fukuoka anymore?

Akaishi: We ended up doing that for about a year. Initially, the concept was connecting a physical space to the internet, but gradually the focus shifted more towards the internet itself, and a fixed physical location became less necessary. But it's not just purely internet-based now; I find the current state interesting – where we connect to a physical space or disconnect from it depending on the situation.

Chihiro: Yeah. Starting with a physical space and then moving back to the internet led to different results than if we'd started directly online.

 

The good old internet paradise might just make a comeback.

Tsuchiya: Finally, what do you find most interesting about the internet right now?

Hagiwara: Lately, I find it interesting how adding "real" to anything makes it feel internet-like. The situation itself feels internet-like. When you say things like "real tweet" or "real click," what exactly are you referring to? By adding "real," you're essentially thinking about it in the real world after first passing through the internet.

Akaishi: Yeah. By the way, even morning news programs on NHK use phrases like "real-life XX" casually, so this isn't just an internet thing.

Tsuchiya: I see. Come to think of it, desktops themselves are fundamentally imitations of the real world, right?

Hagiwara: That's right.

Tsuchiya: But then, if you say "real trash can," it comes full circle and just becomes a real-world trash can again, right?

Hagiwara: But it's not just any trash can. It becomes a "trash can" that's gone through the context of being a "special folder for deleting unwanted files on Mac or Windows."

Tsuchiya: Ah, I see. Like when it asks "Are you sure you want to delete these?" when you empty the trash, or how it's a bit thoughtful (laughs).

Akaishi: It's like someone who went to Tokyo and came back home looking a bit more sophisticated (laughs).

Watanabe: It feels like we're seeing new attributes that come through the internet.

Tsuchiya: At the Internet Flea Market, too, I felt like there were lots of items listed that were "something familiar yet subtly different" via the internet. That really made me think it was exactly what Mr. Hagiwara was talking about: "Real ○○".

Chifusa: Something interesting recently was this story about Ghanaian internet scams ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BNO5n7FBUw ). Ghana is called the internet hub of Africa, and there's this internet scam group called the Sakawa Boys. They're a problem because they have money, making them the envy of young people.

These people practice traditional black magic, performing rituals like bathing in blood to ensure their scams succeed. Now, they're also getting online and starting to connect with reality.

Tsuchiya: Black magic! Since the internet connects the whole world, it's kind of inevitable, but it's shocking how different their values are from ours.

Chihiro: It might not be just one click away (laughs), but black magic is maybe two or three clicks deep. It's a situation where things with completely different values and religious views all come in parallel.

Watanabe: Last year, a "Like!" production factory in Dhaka, Bangladesh, made the news. It made me realize something I'd never considered before: people in emerging countries probably have a very different relationship with computers, or with the internet itself, compared to us. I mean, the weight of a single click in their lives, the weight of a "Like!", the weight of a retweet – it all feels vastly different.

Like the Sakawa Boys, I'm shocked by the fact that these "Like!" factory workers exist as equals to us on shared platforms like Facebook. They're on the same architecture we use. People say the internet is global, but in a way, it's still not global at all. It's more hyper-local; only a limited form of the internet is really taking off.

Chihiro: Mark Zuckerberg and others are working on Internet.org, trying to connect people worldwide to the internet. But if everyone really did get connected, new types of people might flood in and completely flip our values upside down.

Also, the new people joining the internet now are doing it via smartphones, right? That's a super managed internet.

Hagiwara: Yeah. You can't see the source code.

Chihiro: Yeah. Newcomers to the internet are probably satisfied with a managed internet if they just want to use it conveniently. I think the number of people using computers where you can actually see the source code will decrease. If that happens, I've been thinking lately that the internet world might split into two: people who just conveniently use the internet on smartphones, and people who masterfully use the internet on PCs. Then, that old-fashioned internet paradise, accessible only to a select few with high literacy, might make a comeback.

Hagiwara: That's true. It's already splitting between people who use the internet on smartphones and those who use PCs, right?

Watanabe: So which side do you think the Sakawa Boys will end up on?

Chihiro: The Sakawa Boys would probably be on the PC side (laughs). But even then, we're still separated by the language barrier, right?

Tsuchiya: Exactly. Content created using two-byte characters we can't use is inaccessible to us through search, yet there must be a wealth of incredibly rich content out there.

Chihiro: That's right. That's probably where the frustration lies. Even with all this convenience, we're still separated by language barriers. It's frustrating, or rather, it feels like such a waste.

Akaishi: Since Japanese people aren't using English, there's a significant part that's protected, right?

 

We have to properly think about how we die too.

Akaishi: Personally, since I'm already past the halfway point in my life, I'm thinking about dying (laughs). I feel like how we die going forward is going to change quite a bit.

Watanabe: Ah. That's true.

Akaishi: I think we really need to think about how we die. There's this thing called smart agriculture now, using IT in farming. They digitize all the expert knowledge, install sensors on various farms, and use that knowledge to determine temperature and water levels. Ultimately, that expert knowledge doesn't just die with them, right? Even after they pass away, it lives on embedded in the system.

Tsuchiya: So the skills and insights of people alive today are being utilized as digital data.

Akaishi: I think this kind of thing will just become commonplace going forward. For example, the knowledge of a traffic officer who's incredibly skilled at directing traffic might be embedded into traffic signals. That could mean they continue to exist, even after their physical body is gone, perhaps inhabiting physical objects. It might be something they choose, or it might happen without their choice—creating a situation where they can't truly die.

Until now, the end came when the body ceased to exist. But from now on, in a sense, they might just keep on living. In that sense, I think we should consider how we die.

Tsuchiya: I see. It's like if the voice actress who provided the original data for Hatsune Miku's voice were to pass away, the program that is Hatsune Miku would still exist and keep singing. Thinking about it calmly, the world has completely become like a sci-fi setting.

Chihiro: Back when I saw the account of the late Sayoko Yamaguchi walking in the IS Parade (*), it was a bit of a shock.

Akaishi: I think this kind of thing can be confusing if the system isn't properly designed. It's the same with Facebook or Twitter accounts. Also, leaving comments on deleted videos on NicoNico Douga feels kind of like visiting a grave, right?

Tsuchiya: Yeah, totally. Like when people leave endless memorial comments on a deceased celebrity's blog, saying things like "I'll come back again next year."

Akaishi: That's where the grave becomes. So I think graves naturally form online too.

Chihō: That's right. Things that emerge organically like that are the real graves. There's also the reality that the "records of oneself" found on Google now have greater density and scope than "one's own memories."

Akaishi: With all these different forms emerging, we really need to think about what we want for ourselves.

Tsuchiya: What to do with accounts after death... The percentage of people who will pass away in the future and who have accounts online is undoubtedly going to increase. I feel this is a topic that needs to be discussed right now.

Since the 90s, as internet users exploded, the world within the internet gained its own unique reality. I think that's what we call the shared sense of "internet-ness." And now, that reality is starting to influence the real world in reverse... This trend, like the conversation we had earlier today about death, isn't exaggerated at all. I believe it will increasingly shape how we live.

And the sense of "internet-ness" we're discussing today might one day become commonplace, or transform into something entirely different, becoming a sensation we can't even comprehend. Like how old calculators used to have an abacus attached to the side so you could double-check the results! (laughs). In fact, today's discussion might be incredibly valuable folklore for people 100 years from now. I heard so many interesting stories today. Thank you very much!

(*) IS Parade: A parade generator that lets you march alongside your followers by entering your Twitter ID. Grand Prize, Entertainment Division, 14th Japan Media Arts Festival (2011)

Exonimo
(IDPW Name: Sister Abalone, Last Fish)
An art unit that wields anger, laughter, and text editors to hack into various media with a sense of defiance. Founded by Kensuke Senbo and Yae Akaiwa, they began activities online in 1996. Since 2000, they have expanded their activities to installations, live performances, event production, and community organizing. Flexibly traversing digital and analog, networked worlds and the real world, they have undertaken numerous experimental projects with humorous approaches and fresh perspectives. They are active in exhibitions and festivals both domestically and internationally. In 2006, The Road Movie won the Golden Nica Award in the Net Vision category at Ars Electronica. In 2010, ANTIBOT T-SHIRTS received the RGB Award at the Tokyo TDC Awards. In 2013, the iPhone app "Joiner" and two other works were acquired by the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography. Full member of IDPW.

Toshiya Hagiwara
(IDPW Name: Gray Sea Star)
Web designer. Founded Semi-Serif in 2012 after Semi-Transparent Design. Works extensively in web design and net art, while also active in the design and editing collective Cooktoo and as flapper3. CBCNET Editor. Received the New Artist Award in the Entertainment Division at the 16th Japan Media Arts Festival as a full member of IDPW.

Tomoya Watanabe
(IDPW Name: Tomorrow Shark)
Born in 1984. Using self-developed software based on media technologies like computers and television, he creates performances, installations, and video works. Major exhibitions include "Central East Tokyo" (2007–2009, Bakuro-Yokoyama area, Tokyo), "scopic measure #07" (2008, Yamaguchi Center for Arts and Media), and "redundant web" (2010, online). Since 2010, he has serialized the essay "Memory Alley Information Science and Art Academy" with Akihiko Taniguchi on CBCNET. Major awards include the Excellence Prize at the 2nd Keikyu Kamata Debut Novel Literary Award and the Good Design Award.